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A short summary of this paper. Jobn Rajcbman. Michel Rosenfeld, Pal Steir. Pamela Tytell. Three issues comprise one volume. Add The ''Argentine Model". And you described Bentham, a n Englishjurist, a s "the Fourr ier ofa police society", I This is all very mysterious for us, but as for you, how did you encounter the Panopticon? Michel Foucault: It was while studying the origins of clinical medicine. I wanted to know how medical observation, the observing gaze of the clinician fe regard mMical , became institutionalized; how it was effectivelY inscribed within social space; how the new hospital structure was at one and the same time the effect of a new type of perception regard and its support.

And I came to realize, while examining the different architectural projects that resulted from the second fire at the Hotel-Dieu in , to what extent the problem of the total visibility of bodies, of individuals and of things, before a centralized eyesight regard. For quite some time I believed these problems to be particular to 18th century medicine and its beliefs. One is already struck by the fact that the same concern existed well before Bentham.

Bentham told how it was his brother who first had the idea of the panopticon whiie visiting the Military Academy. The theme was, in any ca! While the idea of the panopticon preceded Bentham, it was nevertheless he who actually formulated it. The very word panoptictJn can be considered crucial. It wa!. As a matter of fact, this innovation has been utilized widely since the end of the 18th century.

But the procedures of power resorted to in modern societies are far more numerous and diverse and rich. It would be false to state that the principle of visibility has dominated the whole technology of power since the 19th century.

Michelle Perrot: WluJt might be said, incidentally, about architecture as a mode of political organization?

For everything is spatial, not only mentally but also materially, in this form of 18th century thought. Foucault: In my opinion architecture, at the end of the 18th century, begins to concern itself closely with problems of popUlation, health and urbanism.

The palace and the chutch constituted the two major architectural forms, to which we must add fortresses. Now, at the end of the 18th century, new problems arc posed: the arrangement of space is to be utilized for political and economic ends. A specific form of architecture arises during this period. Philippe Aries has written some very important things on the subject of the home which, according to him, remains an undifferentiated space until the 18th century.

Then, little by little, space becomes specified and functional. Sometimes, in the most favorable of situations, there will be a boy's room and a girl's room. A whole "history of spaces" could be written, that would at the same time be a "history of the forms of power," from the major strategies of geopolitics to the tactics of housing, institutional architecture.

It is surprising how long it took for the problem of spaces to be viewed as an historical and political problem. For a long time space was either referred to "nature"-to what was given, the first determining factor-or to "physical geography"; it was referred to a kind of "prehistoric" layer. Or it was conceived as dwellings or the growth of a people, a culture, a language or a State. In short, space was analyzed either as the ground on which people lived or the area in which they existed; all that mattered were foundations and frontiers.

The work of the historians Marc Bloch and Fernand Braude! This work must be expanded, and we must cease to think that space merely predetermines a particular history which in return reorganizes it through its own sedimentation. Spatial arrangements are also political and economic forms to be studied in detail. At the precise moment when a serious-minded politics of spaces was developing at the end of the 18th century , the new attainments of theoretical and experimental physics removed philosophy's privileged right to speak about the world, the cosmos, space, be it finite or infinite.

This double taking over of space by a political technology and a scientific practice forced philosophY into a problematic of time.

From Kant on it is time that occupies the philosopher's reflection, in Hegel. Bergson and Heidegger for example. A correlative disqualification of space appears in the human understanding. It must be added that this reproach came from a psychologist: here we see the truth and the shame of 19th century philosophy.

Perrot: We might perhaps mention in passing the importance of the notion of sexuality in this context. The notion of sexuality is fundamental, isn ', it? Foucault: Absolutely. In these themes of surveillance, and especially school surveillance, the controls of sexuality are inscribed directly in the architectural design. Perrot: As for as architecture is concerned doesn 't it seem to you that people like doctors, whose social involvement is considerable at the end of he 18th century, played in a sense the role of spatial "arrangers"?

Doctors, or their part, thought above all in terms of the space of housing and cities. For sociological knowledge is formed, rather, within practices such as that of doctors. I n this context Guepin, at the very beginning of the 19th century, wrote a marvelous analysis of the city of Nantes.

Now, the economic mutations of the 18th century made it necessary for the effects of power to circulate through finer and finer channels, reaching individuals, their bodies, their gestures, every one of their daily activities. Power was to be as effectively exercised over a multiplicity of people as if it were over one individual. Perrot: The demographic thrusts of the 18th century undoubtedly contributed to the development oj this form of power.

Barou: It is therefore quite surprising to learn tha t he French Revolution, through people like La Fayette, favorably welcomed the project of the panopiicon. One will recall tha t Benthtlm was made a " Citizen of France" in thanks to him. Foucault: To my mind Bentham is the complementary to Rousseau, For what is in fact the Rousseauian dream that captivated the revolutionary era, if not that of a transparent society, at once visible and legible in every one of its parts; a society where there were no longer any zones of obscurity arranged by the privileges of royal power or the prerogatives of a given body, or by disorder; where each man, from his own position, could see the whole of society; where hearts communicated directly and observations were carried out freely, and where everyman's opinions reigned supreme.

Bentham is at once close to this Rousseauian notion, and the complete opposite. He initiates the project of a universal visibility that would function on behalf of a rigorous and meticulous form of power. In this sense one sees that the technical idea of a form of power that is "always and everywhere observant", which is Bentham's obsession, is connected to the Rousseauian theme, which in a sense constitutes the Revolution's lyricism: the two themes combine and the combination works-Bentham's obsession and Rousseau's lyricism.

Perrot: What about this quote from the Panopticon: "Each comrade becomes a guardian? In L 'E mile, for example, Emile's tutor is a guardian, but he must also be a friend.

The answer is public opinion. The Revolution's problem once again was not one of insuring that people be punished, but that they could not even act improperly on account of their being submerged in a field of total visibility where the opinion of one's fellow men, their observing gaze, and their discourse would prevent one from doing evil or detrimental deeds.

This problem is ever present in the texts written during the Revolution. Since , in England as in France, there was a strong sense oj uneasiness surrounding this issue, which is clear in Howard's investigation oj prisons.

Hospitals and prisons are two major topics oj discussion in the Parisian salons and the enlightened circles. It was viewed as scandalous that prisons had become what they were: schools of crime and vice so lacking in decent hygiene as to seriously threaten one's chances of survival.

Doctors began to talk about the degeneration of bodies in such places. With the coming of the Revolution, the bourgeoisie in turn undertook an investigation on a European scale. A certain Duquesnoy was entrusted with the task of reporting on the "establishments ofhumanity", a term designating hospitals as well as prisons. Foucault: A definite fear prevailed during the second half of the 18th century: the fear of a dark space, of a screen of obscurity obstructing the clear visibility of things, of people and of truths.

It became imperative to dissolve the elements of darkness that were opposed to light, to demolish all of society's sombre spaces, those dark rooms where arbitrary political rule foments, as well as the whims of a monarch, religious superstitions, tyrants' and priests' plots, illusions of ignorance and epidemics.

From even before the Revolution, castles, hospitals, charnel houses, prisons and convents gave rise to a sometimes over-valued distrust or hatred; it was felt that the new political and moral order could not be instituted until such places were abolished.

Ann Radcliffe's sceneries are always mountains, forests, caverns, deteriorating castles, convents whose obscurity and silence instill fear. Now, these imaginary spaces are in a sense the "counter-figure" of the transparency and visibility that the new order hoped to establish. A form of power whose primum mobile is public opinion could hardly tolerate regions of darkness. The panopticon utilizes to a certain extent the form of the "castle" a dungeon surrounded by high protective walls to paradoxically create a space of detailed legibility.

Baron: The Age of Enlightenment would also have liked to see the sombre areas within man abolished. What is very striking in Bentham's text is the importance attributed to dissuasion: as he puts it, "one must constantly be under the eyes of an inspector; this results in a foss of the capacity to do evil and almost even the thought of wanting to.

This is one of the major preoccupations of the H Revolution: to keep peoplefrom doing evil, to make them refrain from even wanting to: not being able and not wanting to do evil. And doesn't this amount to the problem of the cost of power? Power is not exercised without it costing something.

There is Obviously the economic cost, which Bentham discusses: "How many guardians will be needed? If power is exercised too violently, there is the risk of generating revolts; or if the intervention is too discontinuous, there is the risk of the development of resistance and disobedience, phenomena of great political cost. This is how monarchic power functioned. The judicial apparatus, for example, arrested only a ridiculously small proportion of criminals; from which the fact was deduced that if the punishment was to instill fear in those present, it must be glaring.

To this conception of power the new theoreticians of the 18th century retort: this power is too costly for too few results. There are great expenditures of violence of no exemplary value; one is even forced to multiply the violence and, by that very fact.

Foucault: On the other hand there is a form of observation that requires very little in the way of expenditures. No need for arms, physical violence, or material restraints. Rather there is an observing gaze that watches over people and that each individual, due to the fact that he feels it weighing on him, finally internalizes to the point where he observes himself: everyone in this way exercises surveillance over and against himself.

This is an ingenious formula: a continuous form of power at practically no cost! As a matter of fact, within the techniques of power developed in modern times, observation has had a major importance but, as I said earlier.

Perrot: It seems, from what you have just said, that Bentham posed the problem ojpower essentially in terms of small groups. Did he consider that the part is already the whole, that if one succeeds on the level ofgroups this can be extended t o include society as a whole?

O r is it that society as a whole and power at that level were not yet grasped in their specificity at that time? Barou: It is nevertheless not immediately clear whether space organized as Bentham advocated could profit anyone, be it only those who occupied the central tower or who came t o visit The reader of Bentham's proposals feels as if he were in the presence of an infernal world from which there is no escape, neither for those who are being watched, nor for those who are observing.

Foucault: Such is perhaps the most diabolical aspect of the idea and of all the applications it brought about. There is the principal inspector who keeps watch from a central tower. He sometimes speaks rather distrustfully of them, even though they are supposed to be close to him. Doesn't this constitute an aristocratic form ofthought! But it must also be recalled that supervision represented a crudal problem for industrial society, Finding foremen and engineers capable of regimenting and supervising the factories was no easy task for management.

The Church was then one of the rare social bodies where such competent small corps of disciplinarians existed. The not too literate, but not too ignorant monk and the curate joined forces against children when it became necessary to school hundreds of thousands of children. The State did not provide itself with similar small corps until much later, as was also the case with respect to hospitals.

It was not so long ago that the supervisory personnel of hospitals was still constituted in large part by nuns. We finally reach a point of vertigo in the presence of an invention no longer mastered by its creator. And it is Bentham who, in the beginning, wants to place confidence in a unique, centralform of power. Who did he plan to put in the tower? The eye of God? Yet God is barely present in his texts, for religion only plays a utilitarian part. So who is in the tower?

In the lasl analysis it must be admitted that Bentham himself is not too clear about who should be entrusted with this power. Foucault: He cannot have confidence in anyone in that no person can, nor must be a source of power and justice like the king in the former system. In the theory of the monarchy it was implicit that one owed allegiance to the king. By his very existence, willed by God, the king was the source of justice, law and authority. Power in the person of the king could only be good; a bad king was equivalent to an historical accident or to a punishment inflicted by the absolutely good sovereign, God.

Whereas one cannot have confidence in anyone if power and authority are arranged as a complex machine and where an individual's place, and not his nature, is the determining factor. If the machine were such that someone stood outside it or had the sole responsibility for its management, power would be identified whh a person and one would return to the monarchic system of power.

Barou: A diabolical machine, as you said, that spares no one. Such is the image of power today. But, according to you, how did we get to this point?

What sort of "will" was involved, and whose? Foucault: The question of power is greatly impoverished if posed solely in terms of legislation, or the Constitution, or the State, the State apparatus.

Power is much more complicated, much more diffuse and dense than a set of laws or a State apparatus. One cannot understand the development of the productive forces of capitalism, nor even conceive of their technological development, if the apparatuses of power are not taken into consideration. Likewise for the modern army: it was not enough to possess new types of armaments or another style of recruitment: this new form of power called discipline was also required, with its hierarchies, its commands, its inspections, its exercises, its conditionings, its drills.

Without this the army such as it had functioned since the 1 7th century would never have existed. Baron: There is nevertheless an individual or a group of individuals who provide the impetus for this disciplinary system, or isn 'f t here? Foucault: A distinction must be made. It is clear in the organization of an army or a work-place, or a given institution that the network of power adopts a pyramidal form.

There is therefore a summit. But even in a simple case, this "summit" is not the "source" or the "principle" from which the totality of power derives as from a focal point such as the monarch's throne.

The summit and the lower elements of the hierarchy coexist within a relationship of reciprocal support and conditioning: they "hold together" power as a mutual and indefinite "extortion". But if what you are asking is whether the. TV H C;. Four p""nd. Rf Vi""" Tr. Ivailable wlIh GoY! You can hll I! Into drawer, remove rod and.. These tactics were technology in their own interests and in order to shape the social body invented and organized according to local conditions and particular urgencies.

Foucault: Correct. And power is constantly being transformed along with the productive forces. The Panopticon was a utopian program.

But already in Bentham's time the theme of a spatializing, observing, immobilizing-Le. Perrot: There is therefore no global State; rather there is the emergence of micro-societies, microcosms. Foucault: Industrial or capitalist society? I don't know what to answer, except perhaps that these forms of power are also present in socialist societies: the transference was immediate.

But on this point, I would prefer to let the historian among us intervene in my place. Perrot: It is true tha t he accumulation of capital was accomplished by a n industrial technology a n d by the erection ofa n e ntire apparatus ofpower. But it is also true tha t a similar process can be found in the Soviet socialist society.

In certain respects, Stalinism a lso corresponds 0 a period ofaccumulation of capital and to the establishment of a strong form of power. Barou: The notion of profit comes to mind here, which indica tes how valuable some can find Bentham's inhuman machine.

Foucault: Obviously! We would have to share the rather naive optimism of 19th century "dandies" to think that the bourgeoisie is stupid. Bourgeois power perpetuates itself not by conservation, but by successive transformations, which accounts for the fact that its arrangement is not inscribed within history as is the feudal arrangement. Perrot: Bentham assigns an important place for work, and keeps coming back to it. Foucault: This is due to the fact that the techniques of power were invented to respond to the requirements of production, in the largest sense of the term e.

Darou: May I mention in passing that when you speak of "work" in your books. Foucault: This is because I have been mainly preoccupied with people placed outside the circuits of productive labor: the mad, the sick. Work for them, such as they are supposed to accomplish it, is above all valued for its disciplinary effects.

Barou: Isn '[ work always a form of drill or pacification? Foucault: Of course, the triple function of work is alway. The productive function is perceptibly zero for the categories with which 1 am concerned, whereas the symbolic and disciplinary functions are quite important.

But in most instances the three components coexist. Perrot: Bentham, in any case, strikes me as very self-confident concerning the penetrating power of observation. One feels in fact that he doesn't fully appreciate the degree of opacity and resistance of the material that is to be corrected and reintegrated into society, namely, the prisoners.

Doesn 't Bentham's panopticon share in the illusion of power to a certain extent? Public opinion had to be COfrect since it was the immediate conscience of the entire social body; these reformers really believed people would become virtuous owing to their being observed. Public opinion represented a spontaneous reactualization of the social contract. Perrot: When you say that they disregarded the media you mean they failed to appreciate their importance for them.

FOllcault: They also failed to understand that the media would necessarily be controlled by economic and political interests. They did not perceive the material and economic components of public opinion. They thought that public opinion would be just by its very nature, that it would spread by itself, and constitute a kind of democratic surveil!

Perrot: Thinkers generally miscalculate the difficulties they will encounter in trying to make their system "take hold"; they are not aware that there will always be loopholes and that resistances will alwaysplay a part.

In the domain ofprisons, inmates have not been passive people; and yet Bentham leads us to believe quite the opposite. In reality there is a material, the inmates, who resist in a formidable manner.

But we might finally ask whether Taylorism ever really worked? Foucault: Another element does indeed contribute to the unreal liide of Bentham's project: people's effective capacity to resist, studied so carefully by you, Michelle Perrot. How did people in workshops and housing projects resist the system of continual surveillance and recording of their activities?

Were they aware of the compulsive, subjugating, unbearable nature of this surveillance, or did they accept it as natural? In brief, were there revolts against the observing gaze of power? Perrot: Yes there were. The repugnance workers had to living in housing projects was an obvious fact.

These projects were failures for quite a long while, as was the compulsory distribution of time, also present throughout the panopticon. Thefactory and its time schedules instigated a passive resistance, expressed by the workers' staying home.

Witness the extraordinary story of the 19th century "Holy Monday", a day of! Another example is found in the systems of micro-powers which were not instituted immediately either. Management did nol succeed in installing its surveillance system immediately: during the first half of the 19th century it had to delegate its powers; it worked oul contracts with the teams of workers through the foremen, who were often he most qualified workers or those with most seniority.

A veritable counter-power developed among the professional workers, which sometimes had two edges: one directed against the management, in defense of the workers ' community, and the other against the workers themselves insofar as the foreman managed to oppress his apprentices and comrades. Thermal control, to cite only one instance, was substitutedjor the workers' sight and one could now determine whether the material was at the right temperature simply by reading a thermometer.

The analysis of machines of power does not seek to demonstrate that power is both anonymous and always victorious. Are resistances to power essentially physical in nature according to you? What then becomes of the content oj the struggles and the a,spirations they express? Foucault: This is in fact a very important theoretical and methodological question, One thing in particular strikes me: certain political discourses make constant use of a vocabulary of the relations of forces.

Is the relationship of forces in the order of politics a relationship of war? I personally am not prepared to respond categorically with a yes or a no. It only seems to me at this point that the pure and simple affirmation of a "struggle" cannot be viewed as a final explanation in an analysis of power relationships. This theme of the struggle is only functional if it is concretely established in each case who is struggling, for what reasons, how the struggle is developing, in what locations, with what instruments and according to what sort of rationality.

In other words, if one wishes to take seriously the notion that struggle is at the heart of the relationships of power, one must realize that the nice, old "logic" of contradictions is far from sufficient to determine the real processes involved.

Perrot:Put another way, and getting back to the panopticon, Bentham not only projects a utopian society, but also describes an existing society. Perrot: Then does it make sense for the inmates to take over the observation tower? Foucault: Yes, provided that this is not the end of the operation. Do you believe that things would be much better if.

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Yov the realm of appropriation' from which the principle Ivst listen. I consider what I am doing as a kind of "visual music".

Let's drop it. Denise Green: Your Interest In architecture as well as your Let's come back to the word schizo and add a word. The theatre In the sidles cning forces of the unknown, "a la pointe" of a wonted to eliminate 19th centvry pseudo modern psycho-something. And I am very well techniques. They didn't wont to use pointed decors suggesting aware of the dangers, as well as the great advantages in the torest, or a temple, or a using such a word.

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